questions answered- baptism for the dead revisited.

How does the Mormon idea of baptism for the dead that you addressed here and here, equate with the Bible idea that we will be judged by our acts in this life?  Doesn't the story of Abraham and Lazarus completely illustrate that there is not a second chance after we die?


Here is a really great article on The Redemption of the Dead, by a leader in our church, Elder Boyd K Packer.  
Here is a REALLY great article on Judge Not and Judging, by another church leader, Elder Dallin H. Oaks.

Those who are humble in this life will wear crowns of glory in the next. Jesus taught this doctrine Himself when He told the story of the rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and ate sumptuously every day, while the beggar Lazarus yearned merely to taste of the crumbs from the rich man’s table. In the next life, Lazarus appeared in glory next to Abraham, while the rich man was cast into hell, where he lifted up his eyes in torment. 
Luke 16:19-31
We believe that men will be judged according to their acts and intents on this earth.  We believe in more than one judgement.  For Mormons, Hell is an intermediary place-- an alternative high school.  A place where men will suffer for their sins AND a place where men can be taught and repent.  This idea comes both from our interpretation of the Bible and from modern day revelation.  To me, this principle rings true.  Many scriptures, like this parable in the New Testament, are referring to the placement of man-- before final judgement.
i love these quotes from the article i referenced above... Judge Not and Judging.

President Brigham Young taught:
I am very thankful that it is not our province . . . to judge the world; if it were, we would ruin everything. We have not sufficient wisdom, our minds are not filled with the knowledge and power of God. . . . And we must also acquire the discretion that God exercises in being able to look into futurity, and to ascertain and know the results of our acts away in the future, even in eternity, before we will be capable of judging. [JD 19:7­8]
In this teaching Brigham Young was, typically, merely elaborating on a teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, who said:
While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard. . . . He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men . . . , "not according to what they have not, but according to what they have," those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law. [Teachings, p. 218]
Thus, we must refrain from making final judgments on people, because we lack the knowledge and the wisdom to do so. We would even apply the wrong standards. The world's way is to judge competitively between winners and losers. The Lord's way of final judgment will be to apply his perfect knowledge of the law a person has received and to judge on the basis of that person's circumstances, motives, and actions throughout his or her entire life (see Luke 12:47­48, John 15:22, 2 Nephi 9:25). 


LDS view of Baptism for the dead and judgement does not give humankind a second chance.  BUT, it does give humankind a FULL first chance.  We do believe that before we are judged, we will be taught the whole truth.   This life is a time to prepare to meet God.  This life is designed to give us experience and teach us.  After we die we will go to paradise or prison.  Mormon's view of spirit prison is DIFFERENT than most.  Yes, spirit prison is a place of "fire and brimstone, burning and agony."  But we believe this FIRE is figurative.  It is the fire of regret and guilt.  For most, this burning and agony is TEMPORARY.  We also believe that God's grace is sufficient.  God's mercy is powerful.  God's love is healing and changing.  Men will be judged by a God that is all-loving, all-knowing, all-merciful, and all-just.  We will be saved because of Christ's worthiness, not our own.  


The parables of the unjust steward and Lazarus and the Rich Man, in Luke 16 are examples of Christ teaching the need for COMPASSION and CHARITY.  It is also a gentle, beautiful illustration of Spirit Prison and the understanding and teaching that can occur at our death.  Personally, I don't believe this is a complete explanation of the plan of salvation.  But, as I've studied this story again to write this blog, I've really developed a love for this parable.  i want to say-- THIS IS EXACTLY why we need a spirit prison.  Yes, this man will suffer.  But, I don't believe he will be damned eternally.  He is still learning and WANTING to come unto Christ.  He is crying out for mercy.  I believe eternal salvation is possible for both this rich man and his family.  {although i believe this fits with Mormon doctrine, i have never heard this taught... this is my interpretation of this parable.}
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


In this story the poor man, Lazurus, was sent to Paradise, while the rich man was sent to Spirit Prison.  He was miserable there.   He was punished for his sins on earth and racked with eternal torment.  He cried out for the mercy of God.  In this parable, the rich man is BEING TAUGHT in his SPIRIT PRISON.  The prophet Abraham is showing him the err of his ways.  The rich man is crying out for mercy.  He sees and UNDERSTANDS that his actions on earth have led his family astray.  He wants to change things.  This story illustrates why we should be merciful and charitable and forgiving and serving and kind to others on earth.  This is why we should follow the teachings of the prophets and become like Christ-- so we can avoid the burning of agony in the next life.  YES.  We should choose right here on earth.  We should show MERCY here on this Earth so we can feel His mercy in the next life.  And, this story also illustrates the understanding and learning that can occur when our eyes are opened.  Death will be a great teacher.  This story is an UNFINISHED parable.  


Yes, there is a GULF that no man can cross (not even the prophet Abraham)... but Christ can cross that gulf.  The atonement of Christ can cross that gulf.  Later, the rich man laments that his family is lost-- that his family will not accept the prophets.  This is another example of why i believe what i believe.  Did this rich man's family CHOOSE not to accept Christ in this life?  Or, were they taught wicked traditions from their fathers?  We believe that men will be punished for their own sins... not for Adam's transgression, not for their father's transgression, not for the transgressions of other men.  Yes, compared to much of Christianity, the LDS view of hell and salvation is VERY inclusive.  I LOVE this doctrine.  It sits well with my merciful soul.  I believe that most people are good.  I believe that most people would choose good IF they knew where to find it.   


More accurate parables about God's judgement and mercy might be found in the chapters before Luke 16.  Luke 15 is the parables of the lost sheep, the parable of the lost coins and the parable of the prodigal son.   
 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
 3 ¶And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that crepenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.


In Moses 1:39 God says, "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."


We believe this.  I heard a teacher once who sat at the foot of President David O. McKay, a modern-day prophet.  President McKay drew a triangle on a black board with the small point at the top and the wide base at the bottom.  He explained that most people believe that only the tip of the triangle will be saved in the kingdom of God.  (Even some Mormon's believe this... although it is not correct doctrine.) 
In his booming voice he declared, "MY GOD IS BETTER THAN THIS!!"  Then, President McKay erased the triangle and drew it upside down-- he made lines in the triangle to have only the tiny tip at the bottom representing those who would merit "outer darkness" or eternal hell.  He affirmed, "It is God's work to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of man.  He is GOOD at HIS WORK."


God is a God of mercy.  He is in the business of SALVATION not damnation.  I do not believe that the billions of trillions of people who have lived on the earth and never heard the name of Jesus Christ will be damned eternally.  It is not just or merciful.  I wholeheartedly embrace the LDS doctrine of baptism for the dead because I do believe that baptism is an essential ordinance.  I find examples of this throughout the Bible and modern-day revelation.  I also believe that we will be judged by an all-knowing, all-loving, all-merciful Father in Heaven.  He will not damn us based on the family that we were born into or based on our opportunity to learn in this life.  We will all be taught and given the same opportunities-- to accept Christ or reject Him.  I believe that MOST will accept Him.  
And, like the father of the prodigal son, I will say, "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found."
Mormon and non-Mormon scholars have discussed evidence that baptisms for the dead occurred at the time of Christ.  Here is an article that references this. 


i have a question for you good people.  
mainly for you who are Christian who DO NOT believe that baptism is an essential ordinance.
what if you are wrong?
what if, you get to heaven and find out that the ordinance of baptism is required for entrance into to kingdom of God?
what if Christ says, "I know you, you have served me well, but there are some essential ordinances that you did not understand when you were on Earth."
would you be grateful for the opportunity to accept these ordinances then?
would a merciful, just God tell you that because your heart was good you didn't need the required ordinance?
would a merciful, just God tell you that you are damned eternally because you were not already baptized?
what if you were born in mainland China and never even heard of Christ?
would a loving God condemn you to Hell?
what if you are a good, good person and are turned off by the 33,000 Christian denominations on the Earth today.  what if you want to believe, if you want to do good, but haven't found Truth?
are you damned?
NO!!!
NO.  He would not. 
{What if you are evil?  What if you are seeking to destroy?  What if you are seeking to make men miserable?  What if you hate and kill and steal and commit gross whoredoms?  what then?  will you be damned?  yes.  can you be forgiven?  yes.  if you CHOOSE to come to Christ and let Him heal and save you.  will that happen for ALL?  no.  sadly, some will not choose Christ even when He is standing before them with his arms open wide.  Everybody will not be saved in the kingdom of Heaven.  but, everybody will be given that choice.}


I do believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the authority to act for God on this earth- specifically the authority to administer saving ordinances.
This authority was given to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey by an angel, John the Baptist.
I also believe that throughout the history of the Bible, sacred ordinances have been a part of God's true church.
But, more than all of this-- i believe that there is ONE GOD and ONE GOODNESS and ONE RELIGION.  
I believe that all of us will kneel before our maker and we will be judged with complete mercy and complete justice.
Perhaps we are wrong.  Perhaps we are wasting our time.  I am OK with that.
Take away any need for ordinances and doing temple work has STILL blessed my life with love for my ancestors, peace, and hope.
This concept soothes my soul and helps me to understand more completely the LOVE and WISDOM of God.  
i do not believe that a loving Father would condemn most of His children to Hell because they know not where to find Him.
God is better than that.
This is why I believe in Baptism for the dead with my whole heart and mind and soul.


i feel like i should put a disclaimer here saying... this is the gospel according to me.  
hah!  many great teachers in our church have explained our doctrine better.  
i really am not trying to force my beliefs onto any of you.
i started this dialog when there was a big hoopla about Mitt Romney's church.
i'm not trying to say that everyone else is wrong... but, i am trying to say that Mormonism is KIND and MERCIFUL and VERY INCLUSIVE.
maybe you think we are too inclusive...
maybe you think we are not inclusive enough.
it makes my heart ache when our doctrines are misrepresented or misunderstood.
that's all.
i hope i didn't open up more questions than answers.  :)
And, to those of you who sent me thoughtful emails on this topic-- THANK YOU!!
i love the dialog.
I appreciate your effort and time.
you are my friends.